Some of the countries even turned to communism because of US/western malfeasance.
Like, Ho Chi Minh (justifiably!) hated French colonialism and was inspired by Thomas Jefferson's writing, but we didn't want to offend the French when he reached out, so he turned to the USSR.
And then a lot of anti-capitalist sentiments in Latin America stem from the US propping up abusive "banana republics".
During the Cold War, the US helped overthrow nearly *democratically elected governments in every country in Latin America*. That's how insane it was. At any one time, there were multiple civil wars going on at one time that we played a role in. That's how much fascism we supported. Name the country, you can point to bloodshed to overthrow a democracy that we orchestrated.
You almost need to hand it to WASPs. They had an unbelievable capacity for logistics. Like you pointed out, CIA, State, and frankly much of government in general was run by people with very similar last names. That culture is semi-dead now, but they were a weird bunch. I was in a relationship with one for 4 years in my 20s, and got to know that crowd very well. Generally speaking, they're boring, humorless, functional alcoholics. She was also insatiable in the sack which was *clearly* a response to her oppressive background.
But anyhew, don't give communism any credit. The CIA may have prevented some successes from taking place, but there are plenty of examples where the CIA was not involved at all, and they were the *most* brutal examples. The Holodomor, the Great Purge, Great Terror, Cultural Revolution, and the Khmer Rouge were not the fault of anyone but communists. Marx even spoke of the need for classicide, which is still somewhat seen by communists as a feature rather than a bug.
State is still fairly waspy but more diverse. CIA had this weird Mormon influence, but the underlying take on both is that it’s full of extremely intelligent people that want to serve their country. They’re both doing the best work I’ve ever seen them do in Ukraine.
Importantly, the DEA has very little pull anymore, and the left has far more political power in LA than it’s ever been. So the US has really had to adjust to a new world when it comes to how it regards the region.
I remember asking Dulles if he had killed people when I was a grad student at UCI in 1980. Faculty glared at me. I think the best solution for an individual country is something like Scandinavian Social Democracy. Communism doesn't work as we've finally seen. Just moves in a more savage elite. The emphasis on creating "new socialist people" is damning. You can't do it without oppression, and the current cultural left seems trying to do this currently with forced speech, requiring piety around race and gender (neglecting class,) and so on. Achieving "communism" given an industrial mode of production doesn't work because East Germany didn't. (It should be noted that it did provide work and healthcare- bad as it might have been- universally.) My favorite book at the moment is Mathew Desmond's Poverty by America. He shows how reforming tax law would take much of the harshness out of our system. It's not a bad idea to have more of the right sort of government programs to help the population generally. We've had and are having welfare for the rich. End that, and we'd be in decent shape. The last century has shown that you can't eliminate enterprise and capitalism and shouldn't try. But a social democratic system would work.
I love that you asked! I definitely think social safety nets are useful to economic growth, but I can’t recommend the European style at this point because those countries aren’t innovating like we are. And we’re not even doing that great
Mario Vargas Llosa's _Harsh Times_ is a good light fictionalization of the Guatemala coup of 1954, probably the most blatant CIA defense of a corrupt corporate interest against a nonexistent Communist threat. I'm more likely to believe the claim that Arbenz was a social democrat and not any sort of communist sympathizer when it comes from Vargas Llosa, whose free-market liberal credentials are pretty impeccable.
Probably the strongest recent case for the CIA is that it may well have had some significant role in neutralizing the Islamist terrorist threat-- which is certainly a form of extreme-right-wing murderous authoritarianism that threatened American lives, even if the old "Islamofascist" label never rang true-- over the past twenty years. It's of course impossible to know if, how, why, to what extent, versus what counterfactual, etc, but it's not implausible that it might have helped.
I feel like we're constantly the victims of ideals of people who long outlived their usefulness to society but nevertheless find themselves in a position of immeasurable power. A lot of the worst elements of the CIA (and other powerful "backroom" US orgs) comes from people who rubbed elbows in the 20s-60s, the Jim Crow era. Truly awful things that go against the very ideals this country were founded on were incubated in colleges the average, well-to-do but not wealthy, family couldn't afford until the GI Bill was passed.
I feel like we broke that pipeline a bit when we opened up colleges to the broad public (GI Bill ), and further when DEI started playing a role (though its usefulness may be waning now). However, we're still stuck with a bunch of powerful people that were raised before that time, so our institutions are largely still corrupted from the top down. I have hope that this slowly changes as Boomers slowly lose their grip of each powerful institution and a new generation of much more liberal minded adults take the reigns.
In other words, CIA was evil, is likely still evil today (but probably not as much?), but it could redeem itself in a post-Russian-Ukraine-War that focused on surreptitiously spreading liberal democracy instead of protecting US hegemony. If it doesn't head that way, I'm all in favor of abolishing it.
Some of the countries even turned to communism because of US/western malfeasance.
Like, Ho Chi Minh (justifiably!) hated French colonialism and was inspired by Thomas Jefferson's writing, but we didn't want to offend the French when he reached out, so he turned to the USSR.
And then a lot of anti-capitalist sentiments in Latin America stem from the US propping up abusive "banana republics".
Great examples, totally. TY!
During the Cold War, the US helped overthrow nearly *democratically elected governments in every country in Latin America*. That's how insane it was. At any one time, there were multiple civil wars going on at one time that we played a role in. That's how much fascism we supported. Name the country, you can point to bloodshed to overthrow a democracy that we orchestrated.
You almost need to hand it to WASPs. They had an unbelievable capacity for logistics. Like you pointed out, CIA, State, and frankly much of government in general was run by people with very similar last names. That culture is semi-dead now, but they were a weird bunch. I was in a relationship with one for 4 years in my 20s, and got to know that crowd very well. Generally speaking, they're boring, humorless, functional alcoholics. She was also insatiable in the sack which was *clearly* a response to her oppressive background.
But anyhew, don't give communism any credit. The CIA may have prevented some successes from taking place, but there are plenty of examples where the CIA was not involved at all, and they were the *most* brutal examples. The Holodomor, the Great Purge, Great Terror, Cultural Revolution, and the Khmer Rouge were not the fault of anyone but communists. Marx even spoke of the need for classicide, which is still somewhat seen by communists as a feature rather than a bug.
Wow. Thanks for sharing your personal experience. How much do you think it’s really changed?
State is still fairly waspy but more diverse. CIA had this weird Mormon influence, but the underlying take on both is that it’s full of extremely intelligent people that want to serve their country. They’re both doing the best work I’ve ever seen them do in Ukraine.
Importantly, the DEA has very little pull anymore, and the left has far more political power in LA than it’s ever been. So the US has really had to adjust to a new world when it comes to how it regards the region.
That's heartening
I know at least two smart liberal women who are insatiable in bed, at least on vacation...
I remember asking Dulles if he had killed people when I was a grad student at UCI in 1980. Faculty glared at me. I think the best solution for an individual country is something like Scandinavian Social Democracy. Communism doesn't work as we've finally seen. Just moves in a more savage elite. The emphasis on creating "new socialist people" is damning. You can't do it without oppression, and the current cultural left seems trying to do this currently with forced speech, requiring piety around race and gender (neglecting class,) and so on. Achieving "communism" given an industrial mode of production doesn't work because East Germany didn't. (It should be noted that it did provide work and healthcare- bad as it might have been- universally.) My favorite book at the moment is Mathew Desmond's Poverty by America. He shows how reforming tax law would take much of the harshness out of our system. It's not a bad idea to have more of the right sort of government programs to help the population generally. We've had and are having welfare for the rich. End that, and we'd be in decent shape. The last century has shown that you can't eliminate enterprise and capitalism and shouldn't try. But a social democratic system would work.
I love that you asked! I definitely think social safety nets are useful to economic growth, but I can’t recommend the European style at this point because those countries aren’t innovating like we are. And we’re not even doing that great
Mario Vargas Llosa's _Harsh Times_ is a good light fictionalization of the Guatemala coup of 1954, probably the most blatant CIA defense of a corrupt corporate interest against a nonexistent Communist threat. I'm more likely to believe the claim that Arbenz was a social democrat and not any sort of communist sympathizer when it comes from Vargas Llosa, whose free-market liberal credentials are pretty impeccable.
Probably the strongest recent case for the CIA is that it may well have had some significant role in neutralizing the Islamist terrorist threat-- which is certainly a form of extreme-right-wing murderous authoritarianism that threatened American lives, even if the old "Islamofascist" label never rang true-- over the past twenty years. It's of course impossible to know if, how, why, to what extent, versus what counterfactual, etc, but it's not implausible that it might have helped.
I feel like we're constantly the victims of ideals of people who long outlived their usefulness to society but nevertheless find themselves in a position of immeasurable power. A lot of the worst elements of the CIA (and other powerful "backroom" US orgs) comes from people who rubbed elbows in the 20s-60s, the Jim Crow era. Truly awful things that go against the very ideals this country were founded on were incubated in colleges the average, well-to-do but not wealthy, family couldn't afford until the GI Bill was passed.
I feel like we broke that pipeline a bit when we opened up colleges to the broad public (GI Bill ), and further when DEI started playing a role (though its usefulness may be waning now). However, we're still stuck with a bunch of powerful people that were raised before that time, so our institutions are largely still corrupted from the top down. I have hope that this slowly changes as Boomers slowly lose their grip of each powerful institution and a new generation of much more liberal minded adults take the reigns.
In other words, CIA was evil, is likely still evil today (but probably not as much?), but it could redeem itself in a post-Russian-Ukraine-War that focused on surreptitiously spreading liberal democracy instead of protecting US hegemony. If it doesn't head that way, I'm all in favor of abolishing it.
Honestly, what great comments here! Haven’t really said that on the whale app in a very long time.