I don’t have time for a long comment, but I think there are four interlocking problems.
First, going to therapy (for men), as you said, carries a stigma.
Second, because most therapists are women, they don’t have any instinctive understanding of men and have real problems offering legitimate help. I knew a man who went to marriage counselling and left convinced the counsellor was completely on his wife’s side.
Third, men won’t often go to see a therapist unless the need is urgent and they’re honest enough to admit to themselves it IS urgent. But this forces them to vent their feelings – which can be utterly terrifying to witness – or confess to violent urges that the therapist has a legal duty to report, which can result in serious consequences.
Fourth, the therapists are rarely able to offer practical help. I knew a young man who was surly because no girl wanted to date him (and who can blame them, because he was surly?) I also knew a man who was trapped in long-term unemployment hell and would probably have done much better if he’d had a job, but how could the therapist just give him a job?
Providing practical programs to actually help, that show results, would be much more productive in the long run.
It’s fascinating that men keep bringing up female therapists. My therapist is male and I have zero problem with that. Maybe it helps that he’s queer, but I never think that his gender makes him incapable of putting himself in my shoes or empathizing or understanding me. Why do you think that might be?
I think there’s no reason that a man/woman could not learn to understand a woman/man if they tried, and – just as importantly – they had someone willing to explain the problem and give them time to wrap their heads around it. A lot of purely male/female issues are so obvious to male/female that they don’t grasp the fact that the other doesn’t share their understanding and react poorly, because they think it should be obvious.
A more serious point, I think, is that men and women are reflections of each other.
Women are reluctant to get naked in front of strangers because of the fear of being attacked, verbally or physically. They are, however, far more willing to get emotionally intimate with other people, which can lead to problems when a man mistakes emotional intimacy for a desire for physical intimacy.
Men are less reluctant to get naked, but FAR more reluctant to expose themselves emotionally. It is very difficult to, pardon my Star Trek, drop the emotional shields and open a relationship when it makes them very vulnerable. Such intimacy comes, ideally, from a relationship with a partner – and a therapist is not a partner, therefore the average man cannot lower his shields for fear of disaster.
This leads to all sorts of misunderstandings between men and women.
My problem with therapists, which is also something I noticed with lawyers who are dealing with something out of their depth, are paid to do it, and have no idea how to even begin to handle a case they're unprepared to do, is the focus on something that entirely misses the point. That is the best scenario. The worst scenario is essentially being kidnapped by my therapist at school and placed in an asylum for no discernible reason except I grieved... because I watched helplessly as my close friend burned to death and I had to knock on door after door in rural Vermont looking for a phone to call 911 since my school had no cell reception the entire time I was there (2005-2009) and the school, as it was 6 hours after finals ended, offered no help, not even an email, and barely acknowledged the event. And like others in my cohort, we used drugs and alcohol, perhaps to excess to the outsider but nobody died on my watch on campus via anything I introduced onto campus. But nevertheless because I didn't just lie, I lost my liberty - and the ability to finish my homework, no less - over bullshit reasons. In the end only 3 out of 12 students in the dorm graduated. But after this I learned to tell the therapist what they want to hear, but not the truth, unless I had to.
Psychiatrists have continually under-prescribed me medication (thank you DEA, at least I got it on the record in the Federal Register an official policy of 'prohibition first, patient access never) and self-medication carries risks, one of which turned out to be a therapist using the immigration apparatus, which as an attorney I actively fought against every day, to attempt to essentially put me into indefinite detention. ICE of course isn't police but the administrative nature of their actions make them immune to responsibility and I had actually dealt with clients who are Americans who got deported and had to make their way back "illicitly". Whether knowingly or not, this is one hell of a threat with clear racial undertones. After getting kidnapped and having spent 2 years fighting an uphill battle every day and barely make rent I was burned out, only to be threatened in a fundamental way - ICE also doesn't require a judicial warrant to hold anyone, and indeed they can't serve judicial warrants, but that also meant that they answer to nobody but the president and the AG via the DHS. I had a pretty unambiguous case of ADHD that Adderall was no longer really helpful at the 90mg IR level and at the same time, I had paradoxical effects to benzodiazepines so that Klonopin did nothing at all while Alprazolam past the 4mg range made me appear hypomanic. I eventually worked out a combo that made me productive and more or less stable, but with absolutely 0 help from psychiatrists and therapists kept asking me to stop doing illegal drugs and I kept saying if you insist on ignoring the fact that for a year I handled nothing but drug felonies as a public defender and know that it's not the drugs but enforcement that causes issues then I'm going to ignore the fact that you pretend to have listened to me at all. I had a doctor drop me from my Xanax script giving me a week to withdraw (obviously, I ended up having a seizure). Then, my friends started dying from what was clear to me - because everyone said it as such and I was part of that - switching from the soon-to-be-reformulated OC80s to Heroin. One can argue whether one NEEDS heroin, but this was the middle of the recession and I had been asked to leave a Cutco presentation. I quit after an overdose that I survived. Many of my friends didn't, and even more died when the DEA, as reported by their own IG, operated without congressional authorization and was actively laundering cartel money to set up some sort of sting that never happened, but did make a few million dollars in income, which of course implied accomplice liability, under their own theory of law. I almost punched out my laptop when I saw a clip of the Oklahoma state AG gloating about the extortion they committed against Purdue Pharma knowing full well that Purdue doesn't do shit without the DEA and FDA in charge. This is also never picked up or understood by the few therapists I've seen after that. I haven't been back to see anyone since 2018 and I can't imagine things have gotten better.
The therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists are, in many ways, like the IP lawyers who send out gibberish DMCA notices. I have diligently counter-noticed all of the ones that I wanted restored (since restoring the content is the only direct remedy, I don't respond to those that fail to see that my work, which is never infringing since I keep track of the law closely and my mentor was an IP firm's partner who tried vigorously to recruit me after acing every class he taught). The fact is, defense attorneys do not "pound the table" when the law and facts aren't on their side. They try to manage the client's expectations to ameliorate harm. That was what I was taught and that was what I did in practice. The therapists, upon meeting a situation they are unprepared for, have never attempted to ameliorate the actual injury and instead, fell back on a mixture of victim blaming, generic missives that implied the legitimacy of the law - forgetting the audience, I guess - or well, threaten my actual liberty. It can't be a coincidence since this occurred in 4 states over 12 years. I don't believe in state charity so I paid for the sessions myself and I always felt ripped off. Unlike Blanche duBois, I have never relied on the kindness of strangers (if that stranger is a therapist), but so many of my friends have died from the supply-side introduction of fentanyl into ECP - fentanyl which I had been able to acquire in Actiq pop format in 2006 and had no euphoric effects but was obviously delivered safely - and the complete unwillingness by any with authority to even acknowledge that prohibitionism is the problem and I've lost more friends than my uncle who literally fought in combat in 1979 in Vietnam as an PLA officer. My only conclusion is that they don't understand where I'm coming from, there's no frame of reference for them, and it's a systemic problem since I don't have the sort of luck to hit up that many bad therapists and no good ones.
Note: I'm not entire honest with my therapists in the background and degree to which I have attempted to fix my own problems, but that's more of a 'don't answer a question that wasn't asked' situation. If they inquired in good faith, I'd be happy to explain how I manage. But I'm not holding my breath. I know I'm an edge case, but to me, that is the entirety of my only case.
I think, addressing the stigma of men seeking therapy will only change in response to social pressures in the same way that the gradual acceptance of LGBTQ people began to expand as more people realized they knew LGBTQ people in personal life, or in fact within their families.
Because I have so many friends who regularly speak with therapists it seems a very normal exercise to me much like going to the dentist or the doctor
I like to think of therapy as mental fitness coaching. Someone who can see how you perform from a outside perspective and like a coach/trainer/teacher can help you address blind spots and encourage focus on areas in need of development.
Another aspect that is a major barrier is that cost/benefit payout. I've been lucky to have therapists that I have felt added value to my life. There were times I was shelling out HSA money directly to a talky therapist and a somatic therapist to the tune of $350 a week. These were bay area prices. That went on for almost 4 months. I felt I saw over 4k in value but that is a chunk of change on something many people see as optional.
I don’t have time for a long comment, but I think there are four interlocking problems.
First, going to therapy (for men), as you said, carries a stigma.
Second, because most therapists are women, they don’t have any instinctive understanding of men and have real problems offering legitimate help. I knew a man who went to marriage counselling and left convinced the counsellor was completely on his wife’s side.
Third, men won’t often go to see a therapist unless the need is urgent and they’re honest enough to admit to themselves it IS urgent. But this forces them to vent their feelings – which can be utterly terrifying to witness – or confess to violent urges that the therapist has a legal duty to report, which can result in serious consequences.
Fourth, the therapists are rarely able to offer practical help. I knew a young man who was surly because no girl wanted to date him (and who can blame them, because he was surly?) I also knew a man who was trapped in long-term unemployment hell and would probably have done much better if he’d had a job, but how could the therapist just give him a job?
Providing practical programs to actually help, that show results, would be much more productive in the long run.
Chris
It’s fascinating that men keep bringing up female therapists. My therapist is male and I have zero problem with that. Maybe it helps that he’s queer, but I never think that his gender makes him incapable of putting himself in my shoes or empathizing or understanding me. Why do you think that might be?
Sorry about the delay in replying – been away.
I think there’s no reason that a man/woman could not learn to understand a woman/man if they tried, and – just as importantly – they had someone willing to explain the problem and give them time to wrap their heads around it. A lot of purely male/female issues are so obvious to male/female that they don’t grasp the fact that the other doesn’t share their understanding and react poorly, because they think it should be obvious.
A more serious point, I think, is that men and women are reflections of each other.
Women are reluctant to get naked in front of strangers because of the fear of being attacked, verbally or physically. They are, however, far more willing to get emotionally intimate with other people, which can lead to problems when a man mistakes emotional intimacy for a desire for physical intimacy.
Men are less reluctant to get naked, but FAR more reluctant to expose themselves emotionally. It is very difficult to, pardon my Star Trek, drop the emotional shields and open a relationship when it makes them very vulnerable. Such intimacy comes, ideally, from a relationship with a partner – and a therapist is not a partner, therefore the average man cannot lower his shields for fear of disaster.
This leads to all sorts of misunderstandings between men and women.
My problem with therapists, which is also something I noticed with lawyers who are dealing with something out of their depth, are paid to do it, and have no idea how to even begin to handle a case they're unprepared to do, is the focus on something that entirely misses the point. That is the best scenario. The worst scenario is essentially being kidnapped by my therapist at school and placed in an asylum for no discernible reason except I grieved... because I watched helplessly as my close friend burned to death and I had to knock on door after door in rural Vermont looking for a phone to call 911 since my school had no cell reception the entire time I was there (2005-2009) and the school, as it was 6 hours after finals ended, offered no help, not even an email, and barely acknowledged the event. And like others in my cohort, we used drugs and alcohol, perhaps to excess to the outsider but nobody died on my watch on campus via anything I introduced onto campus. But nevertheless because I didn't just lie, I lost my liberty - and the ability to finish my homework, no less - over bullshit reasons. In the end only 3 out of 12 students in the dorm graduated. But after this I learned to tell the therapist what they want to hear, but not the truth, unless I had to.
Psychiatrists have continually under-prescribed me medication (thank you DEA, at least I got it on the record in the Federal Register an official policy of 'prohibition first, patient access never) and self-medication carries risks, one of which turned out to be a therapist using the immigration apparatus, which as an attorney I actively fought against every day, to attempt to essentially put me into indefinite detention. ICE of course isn't police but the administrative nature of their actions make them immune to responsibility and I had actually dealt with clients who are Americans who got deported and had to make their way back "illicitly". Whether knowingly or not, this is one hell of a threat with clear racial undertones. After getting kidnapped and having spent 2 years fighting an uphill battle every day and barely make rent I was burned out, only to be threatened in a fundamental way - ICE also doesn't require a judicial warrant to hold anyone, and indeed they can't serve judicial warrants, but that also meant that they answer to nobody but the president and the AG via the DHS. I had a pretty unambiguous case of ADHD that Adderall was no longer really helpful at the 90mg IR level and at the same time, I had paradoxical effects to benzodiazepines so that Klonopin did nothing at all while Alprazolam past the 4mg range made me appear hypomanic. I eventually worked out a combo that made me productive and more or less stable, but with absolutely 0 help from psychiatrists and therapists kept asking me to stop doing illegal drugs and I kept saying if you insist on ignoring the fact that for a year I handled nothing but drug felonies as a public defender and know that it's not the drugs but enforcement that causes issues then I'm going to ignore the fact that you pretend to have listened to me at all. I had a doctor drop me from my Xanax script giving me a week to withdraw (obviously, I ended up having a seizure). Then, my friends started dying from what was clear to me - because everyone said it as such and I was part of that - switching from the soon-to-be-reformulated OC80s to Heroin. One can argue whether one NEEDS heroin, but this was the middle of the recession and I had been asked to leave a Cutco presentation. I quit after an overdose that I survived. Many of my friends didn't, and even more died when the DEA, as reported by their own IG, operated without congressional authorization and was actively laundering cartel money to set up some sort of sting that never happened, but did make a few million dollars in income, which of course implied accomplice liability, under their own theory of law. I almost punched out my laptop when I saw a clip of the Oklahoma state AG gloating about the extortion they committed against Purdue Pharma knowing full well that Purdue doesn't do shit without the DEA and FDA in charge. This is also never picked up or understood by the few therapists I've seen after that. I haven't been back to see anyone since 2018 and I can't imagine things have gotten better.
The therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists are, in many ways, like the IP lawyers who send out gibberish DMCA notices. I have diligently counter-noticed all of the ones that I wanted restored (since restoring the content is the only direct remedy, I don't respond to those that fail to see that my work, which is never infringing since I keep track of the law closely and my mentor was an IP firm's partner who tried vigorously to recruit me after acing every class he taught). The fact is, defense attorneys do not "pound the table" when the law and facts aren't on their side. They try to manage the client's expectations to ameliorate harm. That was what I was taught and that was what I did in practice. The therapists, upon meeting a situation they are unprepared for, have never attempted to ameliorate the actual injury and instead, fell back on a mixture of victim blaming, generic missives that implied the legitimacy of the law - forgetting the audience, I guess - or well, threaten my actual liberty. It can't be a coincidence since this occurred in 4 states over 12 years. I don't believe in state charity so I paid for the sessions myself and I always felt ripped off. Unlike Blanche duBois, I have never relied on the kindness of strangers (if that stranger is a therapist), but so many of my friends have died from the supply-side introduction of fentanyl into ECP - fentanyl which I had been able to acquire in Actiq pop format in 2006 and had no euphoric effects but was obviously delivered safely - and the complete unwillingness by any with authority to even acknowledge that prohibitionism is the problem and I've lost more friends than my uncle who literally fought in combat in 1979 in Vietnam as an PLA officer. My only conclusion is that they don't understand where I'm coming from, there's no frame of reference for them, and it's a systemic problem since I don't have the sort of luck to hit up that many bad therapists and no good ones.
Note: I'm not entire honest with my therapists in the background and degree to which I have attempted to fix my own problems, but that's more of a 'don't answer a question that wasn't asked' situation. If they inquired in good faith, I'd be happy to explain how I manage. But I'm not holding my breath. I know I'm an edge case, but to me, that is the entirety of my only case.
That is awful and I am so sorry you experienced that. And the system is indeed very fucked up. Thank you for sharing your story.
I think, addressing the stigma of men seeking therapy will only change in response to social pressures in the same way that the gradual acceptance of LGBTQ people began to expand as more people realized they knew LGBTQ people in personal life, or in fact within their families.
Because I have so many friends who regularly speak with therapists it seems a very normal exercise to me much like going to the dentist or the doctor
Completely agree
(Catching up slowly!)
I like to think of therapy as mental fitness coaching. Someone who can see how you perform from a outside perspective and like a coach/trainer/teacher can help you address blind spots and encourage focus on areas in need of development.
Another aspect that is a major barrier is that cost/benefit payout. I've been lucky to have therapists that I have felt added value to my life. There were times I was shelling out HSA money directly to a talky therapist and a somatic therapist to the tune of $350 a week. These were bay area prices. That went on for almost 4 months. I felt I saw over 4k in value but that is a chunk of change on something many people see as optional.
I see it very much the same way. Now. But it’s something I only came to in therapy. And cost and hassle are also huge factors, definitely